Discussing The Shape of Things to Come (4-09)

Welcome to She Said, She Said - a new feature on RTVW, where rather than giving you one person’s opinion on a show or episode, we have a scintillating discussion and then share the collaborative results with you! With shows like Lost getting so involved these days, we thought two minds rehashing an episode are definitely better than one. Or at least that’s what we’re hoping. So, read on to hear what Rae and Just Jody have to say about this week’s episode of Lost.

Rae: That? Was AWESOME. I was getting annoyed that I hadn’t waited long enough to start it and couldn’t fast forward through all of the commercials.

I have to say, I’m going to miss the Lost repeats with the helpful info bubbles. Sometimes I wish we had those during the first showing. Will there be a day when we can interact with our TV on that level? Be able to toggle those on and off so those of us slow people (me) can turn them on so we can keep up.

Just Jody: Oh yes, that definitely was awesome! I loved every minute of it! Thank goodness Lost is back!

R: I love the group playing Risk. How apropos! Plus you gotta love quotes like this, “Australia’s the key to the whole game.” Ya think?!

JJ: After 3+ seasons, I’m starting to turn full circle back to my original Lost theory which was that they’re all in some sort of real life Survivor game orchestrated by the government. I’ve dropped the government angle of course, as it’s now clear that the two teams on the island are Team Linus and Team Widmore. Everyone else is just a pawn in their game. A big real life game of “Risk”. Yes… how very interesting that Hurley told us that “Australia is the key to the whole game”. A game that obviously had some clear rules defined. Although we have no idea what those rules might be, we do know that they have changed. I’m guessing from the timing of Ben’s statement that “NO killing of loved ones” or something to that effect was one of the rules. Because clearly Ben did not think that they would actually shoot Alex. And Penny didn’t seem to be in any sort of danger in any of her past appearances. But I’m guessing that’s going to change now? Did you develop a sudden resurgence of hate for Ben when he said he was going after Penelope? Because I was mad at him for even suggesting it!

R: Yeah, that was my guess for the rules as well or, rather, some kind of “relatives are off limits.” Although technically Charles could say that Alex wasn’t Ben’s blood relative so I think the “loved ones” probably fits better. And I’m guessing it was kind of unstated rule. And, yes, Penny never seemed in danger but I do suspect the island thing is exactly why Charles didn’t want Penny and Desmond together. I’ve never really liked Ben so I can’t say the Penny thing dug up any new hate. It’s more like I wasn’t at all surprised that he’d go there.

JJ: I’m not so sure that Charles didn’t want Penny & Desmond together… in The Constant (Desmond’s FF episode), Charles tell Des that “he’s not the one who hates him.” And then he gives Desmond Penny’s contact info. I think Charles is using Desmond to find the island, and is counting on the connection between him and Penny to help with that.

It’s not so much that I really liked Ben – I mean I love the character, but clearly he’s an evil bastard - more that I wasn’t really convinced that he’s the bad guy in all this. But his threat to Penny certainly brings him back up the bad guy scale.

R: Ben scares me. The man never stops manipulating. I can’t ever tell when he’s being sincere. Wouldn’t that be exhausting? To always be ten steps ahead of everyone else? No wonder he loves the damn island so much! Anyway. As scary and creepy as I find Ben, it’s a testament to Michael Emerson that I actually got a bit choked up at his response to Alex’s death. Although, I wrote this in my notes, “Did they really just kill her?! Oh, snap. Ben is gonna be PISSED!”

JJ: I personally think that Ben manipulated Nadia’s whole murder to get Sayid where he wanted them. The smirk of satisfaction on his face as he walked away was just a little too smug for me to believe that it was all a lovely coincidence. I do love that Ben can be so utterly creepy one minute, and then make me LOL the next. The scene with Nadia’s killer (or was it?) in the alley is a classic example… he’s all bad-ass and creepy going after this guy, then Sayid unexpectedly dumps a round in his target, and he states with perfect calm “That oughta do it”. Such perfect delivery.

R: Wow, really? I didn’t think he went quite that far but I wouldn’t put it past him. I thought the smirk was just because Sayid had fallen right into his trap of wanting to work for him to get back at Widmore. I was even thinking that Nadia’s death had nothing to do with Widmore and Ben made that part up but I didn’t go all the way to thinking Ben took care of Nadia.

JJ: Yep, I think Ben was more involved in Nadia’s death than he’s letting on to Sayid. Too many coincidences otherwise… like he just happened to show up on the day of her funeral? Or the man that supposedly killed her just happened to be standing around when the funeral procession went by… in a different country than where he killed her? Seems kind of unlikely. Also, I was watching the season 2 episode “One of Them” with Sayid’s back-story, and found it very interesting that Sayid was set up to turn against his army, taught how to torture people, and then freed by Kelvin who was also the man in the hatch pushing the button who found Desmond. Add the fact that Kate’s Dad was there with them as well, and it all seems a little suspicious… I’m starting to think they’ve been playing Sayid since way back then.

R: Alex’s death felt like a bit of a shock to the system, I guess because of the abruptness of it. I’ve seen people complaining about them wasting the potential of Alex and Rousseau but, I gotta be honest, I kinda don’t care. At this point I feel like they have too many balls up in the air and, while it would have been nice to get more of their story, I am ok with them eliminating some of the pawns on the board. And, of course, this show has kind of redefined what death means anyway. It’s not like we aren’t seeing dead people all over the place.

But what do you think? Do you wish we had gotten more of their story?

JJ: I was surprised they killed off Alex so harshly too. But only for a second. This is Lost after all - the show of shock and awe. And really the only reason I was so surprised was that I really like Alex and was interested in her and Rousseau’s stories. But, I have no doubt that we’ll see them again from time to time, since most people who are killed on this show, reappear at least once, or they don’t even bother to stay dead. (Where has 9-lives Patchy gone to?) But I do agree that it’ s nice to have a few less main characters to deal with every week. At this point Rousseau almost feels like a main character since she’s been with us so long, and I don’t think her story has been fully told, as we’re clearly going to delve back into the sickness arc with Jack.

R: Oh, I’m sure Patchy is going to show up any time now. I forgot about the sickness thing and it relating to Jack. You’re probably right on with that… I wonder if her death could be a direct correlation to when Jack got sick?

And can we discuss the flash forward(s) in this episode? I’m on the fence about whether we’ve got definitive proof that Ben is time traveling. He’s definitely transporting himself in some way but I feel they were cagey enough with the details that we can’t be sure of what was going on there. The only thing that really sells me on the idea is his clarification of the year.

JJ: I don’t think we’ve gotten any proof one way or the other as to whether or not they can actually time travel. Ever since we learned that the freighter calendar and the amount of days they’ve spent on the island line up, I’ve been sort of leaning towards them NOT being able time travel. It seems like there is a time lapse in between the ‘real world’ and the island, but I don’t believe this equals actual time travel. Although, Ben verifying the date, and especially what year it is does seem to indicate that he believes he can time travel.

I thought it was very interesting that Ben showed up wearing a parka, and that he was clearly smoking (not a cigarette, but all over) when he ‘appeared’ in the desert. What would cause a person to smoke like that? And why was he wearing a parka when the island is in the jungle?

R: Well, Desmond’s weird flashes back and forth seem to indicate some kind of time travel that’s not just related to the timing of the island being different but that’s still a long way from someone actually traveling through time. My thing about the idea that Ben traveled in time is… how does he know about Sayid and Nadia, etc? The parka in the desert makes me think about the whole polar bear angle. I don’t know how they’re related but I suspect they are. I have no theories on why he’d be smoking but that and the fact that he threw up do seem to go along with the idea of being transported somewhere… in a manner that would upset your body.

JJ: Good point. If Ben had traveled ahead in time, he wouldn’t have known that Sayid’s wife was dead, never mind who killed her or even that he had married her. So, I’m thinking that no, there was no time traveling going on. Charlotte found that polar bear skeleton in Tunisia, so that definitely add to the theory that however the bear got there is the same way that Ben got there. I did read an interesting theory that the parka could be explained by looking at “Back to the Future”. Apparently the Delorian was all covered with ice whenever they time traveled? So maybe time travel, or teleportation (which is more what I think is happening) involves freezing of some sort

R: You’ll laugh at me for this… Before we found out the year, I was all excited that your theory about Ben and Sayid knowing each other/working together before the island might be right! Then we found out the date and I realized we were seeing him come to Sayid after they get off the island. Darn! But at least we know why Sayid would even agree to work for Ben. Although he should have seen the manipulation there. I’m glad he’s grieving and out for a bit of revenge so I have a good reason for Sayid not being as perceptive as he usually is.

JJ: Ha-ha! I was all bummed that this episode seemed to blow a hole in my “Ben and Sayid have been working together since the island” theory. The events of this episode definitely indicate that Sayid joined Ben’s team after Nadia’s death. Although, I do still have my suspicions about them hatching some sort of plan while they were jailed together in New Otherton… at the very least maybe that’s when Ben decided he wanted to recruit Sayid to help him with his dirty work? I just think something happened in that room that we’re not privy to… yet.

R: Well, I do hope you’re right! If nothing else, you’d think Sayid would ask Ben about the stuff he saw right before he was captured in the house and thrown in with Ben.

Also, that damn secret room! Explain to me why they were all so surprised to see it when they found Sayid coming out of it earlier in the season? As you know, that’s been bugging me forever so naturally I latched onto it as soon as we saw it. I’ll forgive the others not pressing him on the room itself when he came back out because they were under fire but I still think it was a huge continuity mistake from before. Especially since now it suddenly has a door that slams shut and yet it didn’t do that with Sayid. Ok, sorry, that was my one big issue with this episode. Clearly!

JJ: I’m still not sure that anyone else saw that secret room last time. Perhaps they were all too concerned with their tricky kidnapping plan to be paying attention to what Sayid was doing? And that Sayid is a sneaky guy himself… he may have had the foresight to close the door behind him? Of course this is all just speculation because I don’t really remember them showing the room in that scene. Perhaps someone out there can help us with that though? Anyone have any insight into the discovery of Ben’s little room that can verify whether or not multiple people should be aware of it?? Maybe we’ll have to wait until the Season 4 DVD set comes out on December 9 to find out for sure!

R: I remember the episode (mostly because we re-watched it together) and they caught Sayid as he’s coming out of the room. Like he steps out from the behind the bookcase and finds the gun trained on him… that’s why it bugged me that they weren’t all like, “What the hell, secret room of Bens?!” It’s possible, I suppose, that the door did close behind Sayid when he came back out but the bookcase was definitely pushed out from the wall so it’s always been weird to me that none of them were curious about it. Sayid did see all of Ben’s various passports and money but he’s not around to be saying anything to the others about it so it’s just the fact that they haven’t said anything about the room that bugs me. I suspect it’s just a continuity error.

JJ: Just the fact that no one registered anything, makes me think we’re supposed to believe that no one saw the room. They don’t usually have big, gaping continuity errors like that in this show. It’s not like they showed the room visible behind Sayid when he came out of there? Or maybe this will all be explained in a future episode and it’ll be something else entirely!

OK… so how’s this for a (silly) theory!?! Sayid gets tossed in the pool hall prison with Ben, and confronts him about the International Room of Mystery. (Because you’re right, there’s no way Said didn’t mention that to him at the time.) Ben realizes he’s been busted and that this could F-up his plan, so he goes back in time with Sayid to ensure that no one else sees the little room, and also fills Sayid in on some details which convince him to work with Ben.

R: OK, ok! Stop the insanity! I’ll agree we’re supposed to think no one saw the room, I just think it was done poorly done of them as they did show the room, or the opening to it, behind him. He comes out the door at Kate’s shout and there’s Locke, with the gun trained on the him/the doorway (see the lovely screencap I got from lost-media). That’s why it bugged me at the time but I’m willing to ignore it since it’s obviously not what they intended.

JJ: Alright. Clearly, the room was visible. I will now stop debating that. But, I’m still going to say that there’s more going on than we know yet, because I honestly don’t believe that they would make such a glaring error. With all the effort they put into the most minute details on this show, there’s no way something like that would be ignored. I just can’t buy that it’s simply a mistake.

R: Well, then theoretically only Locke saw the room (and again Sayid wasn’t around anyone long enough to talk about the room and/or, if your theory pans out, spoke to Ben and decided to keep mum about it) and I can definitely see Locke not telling the others about it. But, moving on… I also have issues with the Smoke Monster. I’ve always hated that part of the show and its use tonight hasn’t changed my feelings. I do like that we’re seeing that it’s obviously controlled by the Others, at least to some degree since it seems like they can send it after certain targets but can’t control it after it’s been sent (hence his, “you don’t want to be near them..”). Other than that, the whole thing is just cheesy enough to take me out of the show… and you know that’s saying a lot with this show.

JJ: Brad got annoyed when the smoke monster showed up too - he’s not down with the bizarre mystical aspect of it. I’m more in the Yay! Smoky! camp. I mean they introduced Smoky in the pilot, clearly entwining him/it in the island mythology. I’ve been more annoyed that they just let it drop for so long, since it’s something that so many questions revolve around. So, I for one was happy that they’re finally touching back on that aspect of the island mythology. It seems that Smoky can be controlled by some sort of system, because Ben went through the hieroglyphic door all clean and came back all dirty. Sooty even. So, was he back there shoveling coal into some big engine that fires up the smoke monster?? I believe they will give us logical explanations as to what Smoky is in the end, so I’m happy to get any further info. on that mystery

R: Haha. It’s not that I dislike Smoky completely, it’s that I’ve always hated what it implied. I guess because I don’t have the faith that there’s any kind of logical explanation for it. When it was just scaring people, I could believe it. Once it started attacking people, I felt like it was veering off into supernatural territory. Not like there’s not elements of that already in the island but the smoke monster is one I’ve never loved. But, yes, I do think Ben’s sooty appearance was definitely an indication that there’s something he has to do to get the monster going and that we’ll eventually get to see that.

R: OK, enough from me… I didn’t get to several things I took notes on but what did YOU think

JJ: I can’t believe you didn’t touch on the fact that they totally tricked us into thinking we had an answer as to why Kate had Aaron! I was so SHOCKED when they blew up Claire’s house, and my immediate reaction was “I guess that explains why Kate has Aaron”. But of course they foiled me, because Claire is apparently fireproof.

I have to say that I LOVED Sawyer this week. He was the Hero of the episode, and that’s just not a role we expect Sawyer to take on. Risking his own life to save Claire! And providing us with some good sarcasm to boot. Gotta love a hot guy who saves the girl and makes you laugh! But perhaps this is a prelude to him going back to the beach camp and taking over Jack’s role as protector while Jack is down and out with the Sickness. And perhaps he will carry on that role after Jack makes his exit from the island?

Back to you!

R: HAHA, I told you that I had more things but not enough time to talk about them all! The Claire fake out was one of them. At first I was all, “HA! I knew she had to be dead for Kate to have Aaron.” I mean, you know, after the obligatory, “OMG, did they just kill Claire?!” I should have known better. It would have been hard to keep that spoiler from getting out. I did wonder after Claire’s, “Charley?” if she had a little “help” getting out of the house. What with the way Hurley sees folks who are dead, I don’t think it’s such a stretch to believe that they’d go there. Of course, I do know that it could just be that she was in a blast and therefore confused

I agree with you about Sawyer. We’re seeing him make a good change here and I like it. I think it helps that he’s been here alone with these guys and none of them treat him like he’s a criminal so it lets him get past that and be a hero instead. I do hope you’re right about him staying with this role when he gets back to the beach and, yes, taking that role in Jack’s absence from it. It would certainly be a reason that Jack would be ok with leaving Sawyer in charge on the island.

I’m actually beginning to wonder if Jack’s sickness will end up being a reason he’s one of the people to leave the island. And why Kate ends up getting cast in the “hero” role for the press and the World off the Island. I guess just the way he is off the island makes me wonder if his leaving and their story was not necessarily something he chose.

JJ: I thought that about Jacks’ sickness too… obviously there’s some reason why the Oceanic 6 were the favoured ones who were allowed to leave the island. I can see everyone else being willing to give up their spot for a sick Jack after everything he’s done for them.

And one last thing that we haven’t touched on yet… what about the doctor washing up on the beach with is throat slit!? I’ve read a few theories that perhaps he tried to stop the commando guys from going to the island, and they simply killed him and tossed him overboard. Personally, I’m more of the belief that they left Sayid, Desmond and Michael in the care of the doctor while they all went to the island, and Sayid (or Michael?) slit his throat and tossed him over. What do you think about the departed Doctor?

R: Here’s where I obviously haven’t been paying attention. Was the doctor alive on the boat the last time we saw it? I couldn’t remember if he was around when they were having the issue of the nose bleeding with the other guy. If he wasn’t around before, then I have to wonder if he was a victim of the craziness that seems to be taking over several people on the boat (the girl jumping overboard… the person whose blood Michael was cleaning up from the room where they put Desmond and Sayid). I don’t see the doctor trying to stop the others from coming to the island – not when it seems like almost everyone on the boat knows something about their mission and the real purpose of it. On the other hand, I can’t quite believe Sayid would slit his throat at this point unless there was no other means of subduing him. So I’m not sure if I’m on board with either theory although I like yours better than the other one.

JJ: Yes, well.. maybe. The doctor was the one who showed Sayid and Desmond their new room with the bloodstain on the wall (Ji Yeon 4-07). So last we saw him, he was fine. He did have the cut on his cheek at that point though. But then, we did not see him at all in Meet Kevin Johnston (4-08). I considered the craziness as a cause, but all the crazy people seem to only hurt themselves, and I don’t think you can slit your own throat.. can you? Perhaps we’re missing some relevant information that will be filled in later

Which brings me to something that I thought about while watching this episode… How hard must it be for them to plan out which pieces of the story to tell when? Like we found out that Sayid was working for Ben quite some time ago, but didn’t know why. Now we know why, but we also learned that he was married in the past. At some point we will most likely learn what happened in between when he left the island and when he was at the funeral. Somewhere in there the writers had to decide which pieces to tell us, and in what order. I get confused just thinking about it… but imagine what their story board must look like! Anyway, chances are good that there’s some little piece of info. that fills in the blanks regarding the doctor’s death that we’ve yet to be shown.

Clearly Rae and I both loved The Shape of Things to Come. What did you think? Has Ben been playing Sayid for a long time? Are you a fan of the smoke monster? Who slit the Doctor’s throat? So many questions! But that’s why we love it… tell us what you thought.